Call for Feedback on Category Change Proposal

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2013-09-18 16:55:38 UTC

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The Category Change Workgroup is excited to share its proposal changing the way fandoms are categorised on the Archive, and we are looking for your feedback!

Our goal is to change the current fandom categories into something that balances complex, sometimes competing, factors such as diverse fannish traditions, user behavior (current and potential), and ease of browsing. You can read about the concerns that brought the workgroup into existence and some more information on the workgroup in our introductory post.

Right now fandoms on the archive are sorted into media categories - Anne of Green Gables - L. M. Montgomery can be found under Books & Literature for example, and fandoms that fall under multiple categories are listed under multiple categories.

Under the proposed system, media categories are one of three attributes that fandoms will be sorted by and browsable under. The other two attributes are country of origin and source language. Anne of Green Gables - L. M. Montgomery would have the attributes Canada and English. Like with the current media categories, fandoms will be able to have more than one country or language. The guidelines for how the country and language attributes are assigned to fandoms will be made by the Tag Wrangling Committee.

The proposed media categories have subcategories. Fandoms can belong to multiple categories and subcategories. Fandoms may also belong to a category but none of its subcategories. That subset of fandoms that belong to a specific category but none of its subcategories will be viewable.

The proposed media categories and subcategories have been named with the idea of that name being easily understandable to different people.

Proposed Media categories and Submedia categories

Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art

* Anime & Manga
* Bande Dessinée
* DC
* Films
* Manhwa
* Marvel
* Webcomics & Webseries

Audio & Music

* Albums & Songs
* Audio Plays & Spoken Word

Books, Literature & Lore

* Myth, Folktales & Religion
* Novels, Novellas & Short Stories
* Poetry

Games

* Board Games
* Tabletop Roleplaying Games
* Video Games
* Visual Novels

Live Action Films, TV Shows & Other Productions

* Films
* TV Shows
* Webseries

Performing Arts

* Ballet & Dance
* Theater & Musicals

Real Person Fiction

* Actors
* Bands & Musicians
* Political & Historical
* Sports

Other Media

* Paintings, Sculptures & Related Art Forms

So, Anne of Green Gables - L. M. Montgomery would belong to the media category Books, Literature & Lore and the subcategory Novels, Novellas & Short Stories. It will be findable under those media categories as well as its language and country attributes. Users will be able to browse fandoms by combining these attributes to find, for example, Books, Literature & Lore fandoms that have Canada as a country of origin. Users will also be able to search for a fandom by typing its name into a search box on the main fandoms page that will replace the current media page.

Each fandom on the archive will have a landing page that will include a list of its attibutes (media, country, language), a link to its page on Fanlore (if the page exists), and a link to its works and bookmarks on the archive.

Layout Changes

Mock-ups have been created to illustrate how finding a fandom on the archive will work when this new system is implemented. This is not a finalised lay-out of the new page.

Figure 1: The Initial State of the New Fandom Page (Click to enlarge)

There is a small selection of fandoms initially displayed on the page including fandoms that have recently experienced activity, and fandoms that are currently popular on the archive. Above these fandoms is a search box labelled "Search for a fandom" as well as three tabs labelled "Media Type", "Language of source", and "Country of source".

Figure 2: Media Category Dropdown (Click to enlarge)

When the "Media Type" tab is selected, the small selection of fandoms originally listed is replaced. In their spot all of the media categories are listed and submedia categories are displayed as buttons beneath their respective categories. Alongside each media category's subcategories are the buttons "All" and "No Submedia". The number of fandoms belonging to each subcategory is displayed in brackets on that subcategory's button. Beneath "Performing Arts" one finds "All (1287), No Submedia (71), Ballet & Dance (412), Theater & Musicals (23)". (The numbers used in this mock-up are not accurate.)

Figure 3: Submedia Display Page (Click to enlarge)

When a specific submedia is selected, a small selection of fandoms in that submedia category is displayed - fandoms with recent activity and fandoms that are currently popular on the archive. On the header for the submedia, the option "show all [count] fandoms" is displayed.

So, for example, Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988) is a fandom that would belong to the Films submedia category of Live Action Films, TV Shows & Other Productions as well as the Films submedia category of Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art. El Eternauta will belong to Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art but none of its subcategories.

Please tell us!

There is a Category Change FAQ that has been prepared for this announcement and may answer some basic questions that you may have.

Two subsets of fandoms not yet categorised in the proposed new system are WWE-type Wrestling and Anthropomorphic.

1) Wrestling is under the current fandom categories as Other Media. Are you in Wrestling fandom? Do you think it belongs in Other Media? Real Person Fiction? Performing Arts? Real Person Fiction and Performing Arts? Let us know.

2) Anthropormophic is also currently under Other Media. Do you think it should stay there or does it belong with the proposed Real Person Fiction subcategories under a Real Life category?

Those are two areas that we're particularly interested in feedback on, but we of course welcome feedback on all aspects of the proposal.

The Category Change Workgroup will be reviewing all of the feedback and making (or not making) adjustments to the proposal in response to that feedback. There may or may not be another public review period, depending on how the proposal is altered because of the feedback. Once the Category Change Workgroup has finalised the proposal it will be sent to the Board for approval.

We want your feedback on this proposal. Please leave a comment on this post or contact us through the Category Change contact form.

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Izhilzha (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 05:32PM UTC

I like these proposed changes--I think they will help me find fandoms much more easily.
Question: would ReBoot, an animated children's TV show, now be under TV Shows, since there is no catch-all category for Canadian or American animation?

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1. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:35PM UTC
  
  Hi Izhilzha,
  In the current design, ReBoot would go under Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art with no submedium. Filtering that category by language and/or country of origin would help narrow things down. However, we’re open to feedback on having a particular submedium for these types of fandoms, and would welcome suggestions on what it should contain and be called.
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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Terrie Wed 18 Sep 2013 05:36PM UTC

I'm confused by some of the subcategories. For instance, I'd like to see "radio shows" as a subcategory, as they follow certain conventions and are, generally, serials. I assume they fall under "audio plays and spoken word" but there's a difference, to me, of something like the Star Wars audio version, which is a single one-time story and something like The Shadow, or the original soap operas, with more of an ongoing story.
Also, the subcategories for Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art don't really seem to be consistent. We're separating out DC, Marvel and Manhwa, but leaving Anime and Manga as a block? Given that there are generally differences between the anime and manga versions of stories, I'd like to see it handled like the comics/movie divide of superheros -- an anime, manga and "all media" category. I'd also like to see a different labels for animated and live action film subcategories, to avoid confusion.

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1. Irene (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:00PM UTC
  
  The comics category is also missing, well, comics. There are comics that aren't DC or Marvel. But maybe Mickey Mouse now falls under Marvel after the Big Mouse bought them and ElfQuest under DC for the cooperation they did a few years back. But then I wonder were The Darkness and Fix and Foxy go.
  
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2. 1. dizmo Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:28PM UTC
    
    'Fandoms may also belong to a category but none of its subcategories. That subset of fandoms that belong to a specific category but none of its subcategories will be viewable.'
    So they would probably just be under 'Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art' without actually being in one of the subcategories.
    
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  2. 1. teaberryblue Wed 18 Sep 2013 07:23PM UTC
      
      Which is problematic because now you'll have Futurama, Archie Comics, Mutts, R. Crumb, and The Lion King all in the same subcategory with no further filtering.
      
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    2. 1. dizmo Wed 18 Sep 2013 07:29PM UTC
        
        But right now they're just all in the huge top-category with no subcategories at all, which is even more unwieldy.
        And there's not really much point in making a subcategory for, just tossing a number out there, three fandoms that actually exist on the archive. The proposal says that they aren't fixed and as more fandoms get added, more subcats can too, but having too many overcomplicates thing.
        
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      2. teaberryblue Wed 18 Sep 2013 07:36PM UTC
        
        Oh, no, if it's something with, like, two fandoms, that makes perfect sense, but animated movies and television shows should definitely be split out, and I don't really see why we're giving Marvel and DC (both commercial brand names) top billing when we could have "comic books" or "comic serials." which would satisfy a lot of things that do belong in the same category without giving a privileged place to a commercial brand. (I say this as someone who writes Marvel fic, BTW)
        
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  3. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:40PM UTC
    
    Hi Irene,
    Thank you for your feedback. Currently those fandoms would fall directly under the top category with no submedium. However, we’re open to changing that and welcome input on what such a submedium should contain and be named.
    Best,
    Lady Oscar
    AO3 Category Change Workgroup
    
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3. wednesdaysky Wed 18 Sep 2013 07:59PM UTC
  
  I assume Anime and Manga are together because the majority of us who write in those fandoms have repeatedly pleaded for them to stay together. In most cases, while there may be minor differences between anime and manga versions, adaptations are so similar in storyline as to be interchangeable. Of course this doesn't hold true for 100% of anime and manga but series with large differences are the exception rather than the rule. The custom in anime/manga is that fans rarely specify which medium they're writing for and many write about some hybrid of the two versions, so separating manga and anime versions of series would pretty much be a gigantic headache for everyone involved.
  
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4. 1. Terrie Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:36PM UTC
    
    I'm not sure that it would be a headache. It notes that "Fandoms can belong to multiple categories and subcategories."
    
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  2. 1. undomielregina Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:56PM UTC
      
      I think the real problem is that it would increase confusion for the average user, who isn't going to expect these categories to be separate, won't understand why they are, and won't be sure where to look. It will also add complication to wrangling anime and manga fandoms, as wranglers try to decide if a fandom is sufficiently similar to appear in both categories (as it is, some fans do specify with some series, but it's relatively rare to have to make a judgement call about whether "Series (anime)" and "Series (manga)" should be synonyms or subtags of the same meta tag. If you split the categories, it will imply to users that they ought to be specifying version, because the archive obviously considers them distinct enough to split, which will increase the frequency of such decision-making. Organizational decisions can drive user behavior in undesirable ways, and that's something worth considering when planning categorization like this.
      
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  3. Subarukun Thu 19 Sep 2013 11:22AM UTC
    
    This. I'm definitely one person posting and reading in Anime and Manga fandoms who is very happy that the two weren't split up.
    
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5. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:38PM UTC
  
  Hi Terrie,
  The current submedia division isn’t final. We appreciate your feedback! The end results will also depend on the results of counting up how many fandoms would fall into a given submedium. The current grouping of anime and manga together was in response to the fact that is customary and expected among many fans, and to the difficulty of separating the two given the high degree of overlap. The current interface design will hopefully prevent the identical submedia names from being confusing or ambiguous, but we’ll keep your concern in mind when evaluating the final coded design.
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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lian Wed 18 Sep 2013 05:43PM UTC

Hey, looks like you forgot to switch in images 2 and 3 -- it's all the CatChange1 screenshot. Otherwise, this looks pretty promising to me. :)

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1. OTW_Communications (Official) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:14PM UTC
  
  Hello Lian
  Thanks for the heads up! I've fixed the links.
  Claudia Rebaza
  Chair, OTW Communications
  
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2. 1. Irene (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:19PM UTC
    
    Figure two looks horrible nervous and disorderly like the tag sets. I hope those button things don't hide the fandoms like the tag sets do. The tag sets are difficult enough to read and navigate, and then the constant clicking.
    Given that one of the reasons for not wanting to introduce sub-categories was too many clicks to get to the fandoms, this design looks rather clicky.
    
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  2. 1. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:41PM UTC
      
      Hi Irene,
      The current design is for the buttons in Figure two to bring up the submedia landing page illustrated in Figure 3. From there one can go directly to one of the listed popular fandoms or choose “show all fandoms” for a complete listing of fandoms in that submedium. The design here is an illustration which has not yet been coded, and we’ll take your feedback about reducing clicks and making the font size larger into account when finalizing it.
      Best,
      Lady Oscar
      AO3 Category Change Workgroup
      
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  3. Irene (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:21PM UTC
    
    And someone might want to check the font sizes. Either the button fonts are unnecessarily set to larger than default, or more likely someone is doing the bad thing of trying to make the category headings smaller than the default.
    
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Nonny Quixote (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 05:54PM UTC

Will there be pages to browse all the fandoms in a category or under an attribute, or is this a search only system?
(And yes, your images are all the same, but weirdly, not named with the same file name.)

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1. Nonny Quixote (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:45PM UTC
  
  Oh, I get it, fig 3 is just only very slightly different from 1, I didn't at all get what it was supposed to show on first look.
  I agree that the long titles will be very challenging. If you can, try cranking up the font size on your mock-up and see how it looks.
  In figure 2, the buttons are visual noise. Not readable at all. I get why you made them buttons, because it changes the info on the page, not links to another page, but that is too much chrome to information. The all button is redundant. Make the heading a link with the total fandoms shown and you've just cut a bunch of links (that all have the same name, which is a big accessibility no-no) off the page.
  In figure 3, I agree with the other poster who said that reminds them of the Tag pages. This is not a good thing. There's so much space taken up in each box with detail that likely should be confined to the fandom page. That would be horrible to scroll on a small device width and/or large font size view.
  Less is more. I realize the archive style is "there's no such thing as too much bling", but when you're giving users a page they will scan for information, that chrome just becomes distracting and works against what you are trying to provide.
  
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2. 1. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:43PM UTC
    
    Hi Nonny Quixote,
    It will definitely be possible to browse a listing of all the fandoms with your chosen attributes. We thank you for the feedback on the design of the submedia landing pages and the buttons; we will take it into account when the interface is coded.
    Best,
    Lady Oscar
    AO3 Category Change Workgroup
    
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Gretchen (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 05:56PM UTC

Live Action Films, TV Shows & Other Productions
Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art
You don't think much about Smartphones and other smaller screens, do you?
I already hate fanfiction.net's 'can't find fandoms anymore, because sorted by popularity' change, AO3's propsed 'tons of useless spacewasting blurbs for the juggernauts that totally really absolutrly need that exposition, but no obvious way to find the fandoms' change.
I want one scrollable list, sorted from A to Z (an other applicable characters). I don't want to click to get to a next page, I don't want infini-scroll, I don't want to apply filters, and I absolutely don't want to search. If I want to search, my browser has CRTL+F, which works awesomely on the one scrollable ABC list.
I need the fandom list to browse, because that's the only thing I use it for.

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1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:00PM UTC
  
  I would also love an option for "one scrollable list of ALL THE FANDOMS," possibly with the umbrella ("& Related fandoms") categories removed. I've often been frustrated trying to move between main categories.
  I'd also like a way to sort fandom lists by numbers of fics, but that's got nothing directly to do with categorizing them.
  
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2. 1. Carene Waterman (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 02:02AM UTC
    
    Speaking of sorting by number of works...
    I just posted my latest project
    
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  2. 1. Carene Waterman (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 02:12AM UTC
      
      which I explained, but all that was stripped out of the comment. Awesome.
      I made a bookmarklet to do exactly what you want.
      I just can't link to it because I don't have an AO3 account.
      Um, if you email me at carene_waterman at zoho dot com, I can give you the link.
      I'll put up a post at that ao3some on Dreamwidth tomorrow.
      
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  3. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:46PM UTC
    
    Hi Elf,
    Because of the huge number of fandoms on the Archive (12,990 at present) it is unfortunately simply not possible for us to have a single A-Z fandom listing. While currently the fandom listings are slated to be sorted alphabetically as on the present media pages, we will keep your suggestion for other sort orders in mind.
    Best,
    Lady Oscar
    AO3 Category Change Workgroup
    
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  4. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:57PM UTC
      
      Maybe we could have a downloadable/static list? Updated daily, so producing it doesn't drain the servers too much? (Even updated weekly would be better than not having it.)
      I would love to have a way to get a list of all the fandoms--preferably, both with and without the umbrella-fandom listings, but "without" would be first preference--even if it were a basic text list. Right now, if I want to build one, I have to open each category of fandom, copy/paste into a list, and then try to find all the duplicates and remove them.
      
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    2. 1. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:23PM UTC
        
        Hi Elf,
        I will pass your suggestion along to the coding and design team!
        Best,
        Lady Oscar
        AO3 Category Change Workgroup
        
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3. Ruuger Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:06PM UTC
  
  Agreed on the long titles. They're definitely a serious usability issue. I think 'Live action' would be clear enough for the former, and I don't understand why animation and comics should be lumped together and not two categories called 'Animation' and 'Sequential Art'?
  
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4. 1. Gretchen (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:24PM UTC
    
    I find just 'Sequential Art' unacceptable as a category title. The titles should give an immediate hint of what is in them. Sequential Art is an academic term that only people in academy or following this discussion, know. The average fan doesn't.
    Animation is also rather undescriptive people might expect to find actual animations there and wonder where the cartoons went.
    
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  2. 1. Account Deleted Wed 18 Sep 2013 11:02PM UTC
      
      "Animated Canons"?
      
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5. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:45PM UTC
  
  Hi Gretchen,
  It’s unfortunately not possible for us to provide a complete A-Z fandom listing on one page. The Archive currently has 12,990 fandoms, so the page would simply be too large to be practical for either our users’ devices or our servers.
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
  Last Edited Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:46PM UTC
  
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Elf (Elf_Herself) Wed 18 Sep 2013 05:57PM UTC

1) Anthropomorphic doesn't belong under "real person fiction" because nobody looking for it will think to look there. ("Ooh I heard about this awesome fic about tags hanging out together in a bar! I'll go look for it! Under... real people fic!") It may make sense after it's found, but the logic of the fandom arrangements should make the most sense to people viewing the archive for the first time, not to people who've worked with it long enough to know how tag wrangling tries to sort things.
I'm content with it being in "other media" unless/until it either grows big enough to need a category of its own (eep) or finds itself conceptually tied to some other large category.
2) I would look for Wrestling under "RPF - Sports," but I neither read nor write wrestling fic, and don't watch WWE, so my opinion is a total outsider's there. As someone not in the fandom, that's where I'd try to find it.
3) Possibly, there could be an "Other [category]" in each category as well, for those fandoms that don't fit the current structure? (Games is lacking Card Games, LARPs, "playground games," and some others. None of which I expect to be large categories, but should go under Games.) Not sure what happens to subfandoms that don't fit one of the current categories.
4) If "Visual Novel" is what I'm thinking of, I'd prefer it to be "Interactive Novel." If it's basically a movie tied to text, where the reader doesn't make choices, I'd prefer it to go under books, not games. "Interactive Novel" would also cover the "Fighting Fantasy" gamebooks, which were something like choose-your-own-adventures with dice rolling and character sheets.
5) Games: Possibly, "Board Games" could be "Board and Card Games." Or even, "Board, Card and Dice Games." (Gotta have a category for all that unwritten Yahtzee fic out there.) (Although I joke, there was at least one collectible dice games to go with the collectible card game craze, and it could have fic without belonging in Anthropomorphic.)
6) Animation etc - Definitely need to know what to do with "other" animated and comics fandoms. (Dark Horse comics, f'rex. And various indie comics.) Also, it probably needs a TV category as well as Films.
7) Where does fic about youtube vids belong? "Other media?"
8) I think I'd like TV Commercials to go under Live Action TV.

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1. briar_pipe Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:01PM UTC
  
  Anthro wranglers asked to be able to put fandoms under both RPF and Other, because we are dealing with cases where we're forcing an artificial split on existing fandoms. (Example: "Yuletide - Fandom" is currently synned to "Fandom - Fandom" because it can't be synned to either "Yuletide RPF" or "Yuletide (Anthropomorfic)", and these are two separate fandoms in two separate categories.)
  Real life people and real life objects should be able to be placed in the same fandom without us having to do bizarre wrangling contortions to deal with them. That's all we're asking.
  ETA: In addition, almost all the Anthro objects are real life objects, software programs, robots, etc. Since Cat Change expressed a preference for a minimum of items in the "Other" bin, we felt "Real Life" was the best fit available.
  As for the AO3 Tags fics from last Yuletide, "AO3 Tags" is currently a subfandom of "Fandom - Fandom", meaning it's not part of the Anthro family at all, because not all the works anthopomorphize the tags. And it has 9 works, woohoo!
  
  Last Edited Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:03PM UTC
  
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2. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:15PM UTC
    
    For anthro that's RL objects, that makes some sense. For anthro that's meta-concepts, like the Delicious/Pinboard/Fandom fic, or Time/Space, or various other concepts, it doesn't make sense to put them under RPF. (It occurs to me that I have no idea if they're current wrangled under Anthro or Fandom.)
    I would not mind if some (or all, for that matter) anthro wound up under RPF and other, but putting it all in RPF seems counter-intuitive.
    
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  2. 1. briar_pipe Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:21PM UTC
      
      I think we were looking at having it under both? But I'm not 100% sure, because it's been several months. (I think we talked about this in the chat, didn't we?) It's... a spectrum. Trust me that Anthro wranglers regularly tear out our hair, all while chuckling helplessly.
      
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3. Meroko (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:41AM UTC
  
  4) Visual novels aren't always interactive, though. Or more exactly, the terms as it's used in English mixes both interactive and non interactive novels.
  At the same time, those interactive novels called Visual Novels are slightly different from the usual interactive books and other interactive media, so renaming it would be confusing as most people searching for a Visual Novel fandom wouldn't think of looking in an "Interactive Novels" category.
  
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4. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:57AM UTC
    
    Hadn't realized "Visual Novel" was a specific, rather than general, label. (What makes the non-interactive ones belong under "games?")
    
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  2. 1. Meroko (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:46AM UTC
      
      That's something that even fans of Visual Novels (both interactive and non-interactive) can't agree about, but I think part of the reasons is that some non-interactive visual novels have a game console version.
      Between that and how the term is used in English, many people just consider them games or at least something closer to a game than to anything else.
      
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5. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:48PM UTC
  
  Hi Elf,
  Thank you for all the feedback! We will keep in mind your suggestions for anthropomorphic, wrestling, TV Commercials, and the Board Games submedium name. In answer to 3), fandoms that don’t fit an existing submedium go directly under the top category (in this case, “Games”) and are listable using the “No submedia” button. For 4), “Visual Novel” seems to be the most commonly used term. They are generally marketed/distributed as games. 6) Other animated and comics fandoms would currently fall directly under the “Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art” category (and would of course be filterable by language and country of origin). We’re open to considering other possibilities, and would welcome suggestions for ways to unambiguously name other submedia under this category.
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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radondoran Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:00PM UTC

The animation/comics/etc. category seems pretty limited, or perhaps overly specific. DC, Marvel, manga, manwha, webcomics, and bandes dessinées are hardly the only types of comics. What about newspaper comics? American comic books that aren't from the two major publishers? Or comics that aren't from the US, Japan, Korea, France, or Belgium?
For instance, I don't think I would call Scrooge McDuck, or, say, Archie Comics, bandes dessinées.
(Also, like the first commenter, I'm not sure where non-Japanese TV cartoons go?)
(EDIT: Wait, no, sorry, I think I get it now. So stuff that isn't one of those specific subsets would just go under Animation/Comics/etc., and wouldn't be in a subcategory. Okay, I guess that makes sense. In order to find Scrooge and Archie, I could filter on "Animation/etc. + no subcategory + United States".
Since I'm not the only one who jumped to this conclusion, maybe making "Other" an actual subcategory so that everything is on the same hierarchy level would be more intuitive? For this specific category, it would probably make sense to split it into "Other Comics" and "Other Animation"... I dunno. I no longer have any strong feelings about this news. ^^; )

Last Edited Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:16PM UTC

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1. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:49PM UTC
  
  Hi radondoran,
  Currently all of those fandoms would in fact go directly under the top level
  Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art category. We’re open to the idea of creating more subcategories and thank you for your feedback on potential names.
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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A user (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:04PM UTC

When a specific submedia is selected, a small selection of fandoms in that submedia category is displayed - fandoms with recent activity and fandoms that are currently popular on the archive. On the header for the submedia, the option "show all [count] fandoms" is displayed.
I think this will quickly get annoying for people like me who like to browse a lot. Please include a direct link from the outset to a show all fandoms, don't make us click through several different links of what's currently popular to get there. I have no problem with a currently popular list but it doesn't interest me and I don't want to have to waste time for the pages to load to get to a full list of fandoms.
I love the subcategories you've chosen and I appreciate that fandoms can be included in more than one. I look forward to the new system being implemented!

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1. same user (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:08PM UTC
  
  Same user, just to clarify, for example, if I selected "Myths, Folktales & Religion" from the drop down I'd hope to be taken directly to an A-Z list of all the fandoms categorized that way. Perhaps there can then be a link to currently popular & currently active for those who are interested in that information instead of the other way around?
  
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2. DarkExperience Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:59PM UTC
  
  I agree wholeheartedly. I like the A-Z lists and - at least for me - having to go over the "currently popular"-page would make things overly complicated. Perhaps there could be a compromise? Like you go straight to the A-Z list but there's a sidebar on it which shows the recently active and currently popular fandoms? Or you leave it like in the mockup but add the A-Z list below that so you simply have to scroll down to see it? Both options seem better than having to navigate through so many pages to me.
  
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3. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:51PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  The thought behind putting the most active/popular fandoms on the submedium landing page was that many users will be looking for those fandoms and will not have to click further, saving them time and the servers the strain of generating the whole fandom list for users who do not need it. However, we will carefully consider all user feedback before finalizing and coding the design.
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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Laura (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:20PM UTC

This is probably just an oversight, but the Cartoons subcategory is missing from Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art. That said, I like the new categories, and in particular the idea of joining Anime & Manga/Cartoons & Comics makes a lot of sense to me.

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1. musikurt Thu 19 Sep 2013 03:32AM UTC
  
  Commenting to agree. And especially with Cartoons missing when there is no clear information on how new subcategories will be created or how the revision process will work (this current proposal took over a year to create - is that going to happen every time the categories need to be revisited?).
  
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2. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:52PM UTC
  
  Hi Laura,
  Currently cartoons other than anime will go directly under the top level
  Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art category. However, we’re open to creating further submedia and welcome suggestions for contents/unambiguous names.
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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3. 1. Laura (Guest) Fri 20 Sep 2013 09:37PM UTC
    
    I see. In that case, I do think a cartoon subcategory is useful. It's a pretty big amount of fandoms.
    
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Comics fan (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:23PM UTC

Where will comics/graphic novels go if they aren't Marvel or DC?
The current page system and visual system looks easier to use than the new proposed system. I don't think it should be changed. At the very least, please keep a browse-able list for each subcategory.

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1. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:56PM UTC
  
  Hi Comics fan,
  Thank you for your feedback. Comics/graphic novels that do not fall under manga, Marvel, DC, or one of the other submedia will go directly under the top
  Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art category. There will definitely be a browseable list for any set of fandom criteria you choose (category, submedium, language, country of origin).
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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duckgirlie Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:26PM UTC

I don't quite see a need to filter based on country of origin, but I presume you've got one.
But like other people have said, you're making some catagories broader and also narrower at the same time. Why are anime and manga still lumped together when you're being so over-specific about separating out other sequential art? And there are a bunch of sequential art fandoms that are left out - what about stuff like Archie, or Ducktails, or the numerous independent comics out there?
Similarly, I browse the archive on my phone a lot. Anything that's going to make doing that harder (by making catagory names so long they take up multiple lines on the screen, or forcing me to go through multiple menus to get to things, is a major negative in my book.

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1. Ruuger Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:59PM UTC
  
  I can see the country useful since there are people who are fans of, say, British shows or Korean dramas. For me the language of the canon is the weird one, and I can't come up with a reason why anyone would look for works based on that and not based on the language of the fanwork?
  
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2. Erica (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 07:53PM UTC
  
  "I don't quite see a need to filter based on country of origin"
  So people can more easily pat themselves on the back for having oh so culturally diverse tastes, I would think. And yet, as you quite rightly point out, they're still lumping anime and manga together as though they're the same thing.
  Don't give us lip service about caring about non-Western fandoms, AO3. Get people on your team who actually care about them.
  
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3. 1. Qem Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:15PM UTC
    
    It's not quite as straight forward as you are making out. There are some anime and manga fandoms that have subtags for their anime and manga versions, but there are a lot of users that don't differentiate between whether it's the manga or anime version of say Kuroko no Basuke.
    
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  2. kim (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:23PM UTC
    
    They are "lumping" anime and manga together because those of us who are fans have repeatedly asked for this. If your going to throw a hissy fit about something, at least get your facts straight.
    I think filtering on country base on origin might be helpful. If you don't want it, don't use it.
    
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  3. musikurt Thu 19 Sep 2013 03:36AM UTC
    
    They claim to care about non-Western fandoms and then actually privilege specific Western fandom groups in the category structure (DC & Marvel instead of Comic Books or something similar). I'm hoping this was simply an oversight, especially since the FAQ says this originated out of the committee that is supposed to be focused on international issues...
    
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4. wednesdaysky Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:06PM UTC
  
  Anime and manga fans have repeatedly asked the staff to keep the two genres together, particularly because the fandoms of anime and manga adaptations of works generally overlap and fans rarely specify which version they're writing for when they post fic. Separating them would be a very big headache for us as fans and I'm sure for the staff too.
  
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5. 1. AnimeAndMangaFan (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:28PM UTC
    
    You asked for it. I for sure didn't, but then I'm into canons that don't try to sell me the same story twice and I very much prefer to read the version my mood strikes me for and not a terrible forced together clash of anime and manga canon. I would wish for them to be separated and I don't see it as a headache at all.
    
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  2. 1. wednesdaysky Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:46PM UTC
      
      Is there a need to get unpleasant about it? If you're into anime and manga, I assume you've already noticed that basically no one separates out the two versions when posting fic. AO3 artificially trying to insert a separation between mediums is not going to make the fans conform to your ideal behavior.
      
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    2. 1. AnimeAndMangaFan (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:52PM UTC
        
        No, I simply see people working with a system that has been copied from another site. It's not like there's another choice. If I separate, chance are extremely high, it's just going to get wrangled back into one fandom. People will mostly follow what's already there.
        If it had been separated from the beginning, people would no clamor against throwing them into the same sub-category.
        Yes, I really dislike you speaking as if you were speaking and mind-reading the desires of all Manga and Anime fans.
        
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      2. wednesdaysky Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:55PM UTC
        
        I'm really confused by your hostile tone here. The things I've been restating are things that numerous other people have already brought up in the many, many discussions that have already been held on the subject of where anime/manga should fall in AO3's categories. I'm not "mind reading" anyone's desires, I've been summarizing the arguments that have already been made over the past months for the benefit of people who were wondering why the categorization ended up this way.
        If you wish to continue this discussion please come back willing to talk respectfully on your own account under your own name.
        
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        (3 more comments in this thread)
        
        undomielregina Wed 18 Sep 2013 09:11PM UTC
        
        If you create a tag that distinguishes medium and there's sufficient difference between the two versions (which is admittedly something of a judgement call, because it's hard to create firm guidelines for something like that), they should be sub-tagged to the same meta-tag. There are a number of anime and manga fandoms like that already, including Sailor Moon and Fullmetal Alchemist. If the wrangler for your fandom makes them synonyms, you can submit a support request asking that they be separated (something I have successfully done myself for certain fandoms). But the majority standard in wider English-language anime and manga fandom has typically been to generally consider anime and manga versions of the story to be equivalent, even if there are some variations in storyline, going back a very long time and encompassing organization in everything from huge, multi-fandom archives like shoujoai.com to single-series, multi-user archives to tiny personal websites. This is really AO3 trying to work within community norms for the wider fandom.
        
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    3. Phoebe_Zeitgeist Wed 18 Sep 2013 11:42PM UTC
      
      That's nice for you, but you're not the only person using the archive, and others have indeed asked that the categories be kept together. I haven't participated in these discussions to date, but if I had, as a writer I would be saying that it would indeed be a huge headache for me if the archive decided to separate the categories. I came into fandom through a writing and reading culture that often takes a bricolage approach to anime and manga canons, and if the archive separated the two I would have no clue where to archive anything.
      Obviously, there's no reason standing alone why my preferences and ideas of what's functional should outweigh yours, or vice versa. But it should be equally obvious that your preferences aren't automatically representative of all anime or manga fans, and that the fact that the archive resolved the conflict in a way you personally dislike doesn't mean it's giving "us" lip service about caring about non-Western fandoms. "I don't like this" doesn't mean "Help, help, I'm being oppressed."
      
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6. lawless Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:43PM UTC
  
  Anime and manga are lumped together because for many, if not most fandoms, they're treated as synonymous because the fandom is coalesced around both -- some people have only read the manga, others have only seen the anime, and many have read and seen both. Not lumping them together would mean that for completeness sake, and for the sake of those looking for fic, a writer would have to list a fic under the anime, manga, and (if any) combined fandom. Why put her through that work if the convention used by most fans and fandoms in this category is unified?
  I say this as someone whose first two fandoms, in which I've written extensively and of whose communities I'm a member, are manga and anime fandoms (Gravitation and Saiyuki). Believe me, I like the manga better than the anime in both instances and have seen little of the anime in either instance, but stories for Gravitation especially often are based solely on knowledge of the anime. And in both instances, the fans don't make the distinctions you do, even though some of us, like me, write based on the manga because I consider the anime a non-canonical (or sometimes semi-canonical when there are elements I want to use) secondary source.
  
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7. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:57PM UTC
  
  Hi duckgirlie,
  Thank you for your feedback regarding long names and mobile browsing. The current grouping of anime and manga together was in response to the fact that is customary and expected among many fans, and to the difficulty of separating the two given the high degree of overlap. Under the current design Archie, Ducktails, etc. would fall directly under the top
  Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art category with no submedia. The purpose of being able to filter by language and country of origin is in fact to be able to better separate large categories - for example, if you were looking for fandoms such as Ducktails you could filter the category for U.S. origin and English.
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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perdiccas Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:29PM UTC

Would it be possible to see a screen shot of what a page that shows a list of all the fandoms in a subcat looks like? Is it a plain list like the current system or does it include all the meta data for each fandom like the screenshot for the currently popular page? I think the latter would be extremely hard to scroll through and browse as all the extra info and the bulky boxes will make the screen quite cluttered.
I second all the requests for an easy to find, one click link to get to the full list of fandoms without having to go through the currently popular page to get there. Otherwise, I like the idea of subcategories. Thank you!

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1. perdiccas Thu 19 Sep 2013 03:39AM UTC
  
  I also have a question about fandoms being in more than one tag. For example, if I go to the movies section and select Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, will I only be shown fic that's tagged specifically for the movie 'verse? And the same for book fic only if I go HHGTG through the Books & Lit gateway? Will there be any way to see everything that's tagged HHGTG, regardless of category? And where will fics go that are tagged HHGTG that don't specify whether they're movie or book 'verse? Will they turn up in both places or in neither?
  
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2. 1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:30PM UTC
    
    Hi!
    This feature will not change fandom tags themselves, at all, except by attaching to them certain extra information (and in some cases, changing them from one pre-existing media category to another).
    If you go to the movies section, you will probably encounter two fandom tags for your fandom, one for the movie-only version, and a 'metatag', usually formated 'HHGTG - All Media Types' (but in this case, just HHGTG: http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Hitchhiker%27s%20Guide%20to%20the%20Galaxy). If you click on the metatag, you get all works tagged with either of the subtags (i.e. tagged with the movie version or the book version) any of its synonymous tags, or tagged directly with the metatag or one of its synonymous tags.
    You can read more about the way tags work in the Archive here: http://archiveofourown.org/archive_faqs/10
    Best,
    hele
    AO3 Category Change Workgroup
    
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3. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:58PM UTC
  
  Hi Perdiccas,
  The interface isn’t actually coded yet - the figures in this post are mockups created to help guide the design discussion, and we will keep in mind your feedback about the fandom listing pages, as well as your suggestion for a quicker way to reach those pages.
  Best,
  Lady Oscar
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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Poi Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:36PM UTC

I was a bit perplexed about some of the omissions in the subcats, especially under animation/sequential art, but I assume that is because you are only subcat-ing the biggest groups of fandoms? Does that mean that there will be some kind of quota type thing, like when there are a certain number of animated tv show fandoms or whatever they get a separate subcat, and until then are just filed generally under the main category? (If so, what is the number?)
I also am not interested in the most popular/recently active fandoms, it just adds more clicks to find fandoms I'm actually interested in. But I think in general this is a big improvement on the current cats and i would get more use out of it.

Last Edited Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:42PM UTC

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1. musikurt Thu 19 Sep 2013 03:37AM UTC
  
  I'm really curious about this, too. I find the "We'll figure out how new subcategories are added later" idea to be a bit dubious. If this is an overhaul of the category structure and how it's going to work going forward, that should be a part of this and users should have the chance to give input at the same time...
  
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2. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:54PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  We're indeed only making subcategories for big enough groups of fandoms, but what 'big enough' exactly means has not been defined yet (we have to see what the different limits would mean for the number of subcategories, which has to be kept reasonably low for usability).
  I've recorded your feedback about the popular fandom listings — we will take it into account in our discussion. Thanks!
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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chasesstarlight Wed 18 Sep 2013 06:43PM UTC

...What on earth is the point of the Country of Origin filter? Does anyone look for media from a specific country? I get filtering by language, but this is just weird to me; it seems like such a random thing to filter by.
I second the request for a page with all the fandoms, if at all possible, and the comments about the missing categories in the Sequential Art folder.
Also, I can see the splash page with recently active and popular fandoms get really annoying really fast. I'm not really in any of the juggernaut fandoms that are going to be showing up there 99% of the time and having to waste time while that information loads would probably get grating.

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1. teaberryblue Wed 18 Sep 2013 07:28PM UTC
  
  I figure it's useful if you're looking for, say, K-drama specifically
  
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2. navaan Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:55PM UTC
  
  Also, I can see the splash page with recently active and popular fandoms get really annoying really fast.
  That was my first thought when I looked at them.
  
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3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:51PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  Both country and language of origin browsing options have been requested and can be useful to narrow down some of the larger categories. For example, an Australian user might want to filter live-action TV shows by country of origin Australia, and a Spanish-speaking user might want to look for Spanish-language film fandoms to find works for that movie they just watched. It will not be mandatory to use them.
  Thanks for your feedback on this & other matters! We will take it into account in our discussion.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change
  
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4. Carmarthen Fri 20 Sep 2013 10:34PM UTC
  
  I would definitely use Country of Origin as a way to get canon recs if it were an option. For example, right now, I'd like to find some Russian movies to work on my listening comprehension, and movies that generate fannish activity are more likely to appeal to me.
  
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teaberryblue Wed 18 Sep 2013 07:19PM UTC

I'm not sure what I think about breaking "Marvel" and "DC" out as subcategories for comics, since they are companies. "Disney" isn't broken out that way, for example, nor are specific TV channels, even though I would say Disney has the same weight in describing its movie universes as Marvel or DC do. Perhaps it should keep strictly to format? I'm not necessarily comfortable with two brand names being given that kind of weight over other brands
Graphic Novels
Serial Comics
Comic Strips
Should really be added in either case.
So should Films and TV Series under the animation/comics category, otherwise animated films and cartoons have no categories of their own.
Books and Literature should have a subcategory for Picture Books and one for Nonfiction, because you can write a fic that is related to a non-fiction book without it being an RPF.
Those would be my only suggestions. Otherwise, looks great!

Last Edited Wed 18 Sep 2013 07:28PM UTC

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1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:56PM UTC
  
  I'm also unsure about Marvel and DC being fandom categories. (OTOH, people do treat them like fandom groups, in ways that they do not treat "Disney" as an umbrella fandom.)
  I could also see categories of "Superhero" and "Other comics/cartoons."
  
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2. 1. teaberryblue Wed 18 Sep 2013 09:04PM UTC
    
    Yeah, superhero is big enough it could have its own category, for sure. Part of what I'm reacting to is definitely the idea of promoting some brand names over others on a NFP website.
    
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  2. 1. undomielregina Wed 18 Sep 2013 09:13PM UTC
      
      I would definitely prefer the use of a "Superhero Comics" category, and I have both Marvel and DC fandoms. It's not going to make the titles I'm interested in significantly more difficult to find, and it's more in line with the other categories already present.
      
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    2. 1. navaan Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:38PM UTC
        
        Yeah, I'm also in DC and Marvel fandoms and "Superhero Comics" or simply "Superheroes" would make more sense to me (and would also include other comics of the genre that are not from the Big Two). It would still be easily browsable without seperating the titles by company.
        And with Vertigo being owned by DC would Vertigo titles be found in the DC subcategory or would they go with the rest of unspecified titles?
        
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      2. A (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:19PM UTC
        
        If you go by who's owned by who, wouldn't subcategories be Time Warner and Disney instead of DC and Marvel?
        
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        navaan Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:32PM UTC
        
        That doesn't make any more or less sense to me than singeling out DC and Marvel as subcategories, instead of having a Comics & Graphic Novels or a Superhero Comics subcat.
        
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3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:50PM UTC
  
  Hi there!
  Not all potential subcategories will exist — not necessarily even all those we've used to illustrate the system. All fandoms that don't fit any submedium will just be placed in the category (or categories) they belong to, and will be filterable by language and country of origin.
  Thanks for your feedback; I've recorded it to use it in our discussion.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change
  
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4. 1. teaberryblue Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:04PM UTC
    
    Thanks! It definitely makes sense that things that would go in a subcategory that would tiny are better off just being in the parent.
    My biggest objection right now is to brand names as categories. Those get tagged as fandoms and I think it's fine that way. I liked the suggestion of breaking superhero comics out as a subcat.
    
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  2. 1. Zeri (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:48PM UTC
      
      Superhero comics is kinda wishwashi, too. Sailor Moon, Naruto, Luffy and a bunch of others can easily be counted as superheroes. Should they get in there, too?
      I'm getting the feeling that this re-categorisation is trying to transport apples and bananas in the same boxes and expecting both of them to be still be sell-able at the end.
      
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    2. 1. undomielregina Thu 19 Sep 2013 11:54PM UTC
        
        While they definitely can easily be counted as superheroes, in practice no one I'm aware of in anime and manga fandom as it currently exists would classify them that way, not even series like Dragonball Z that are deliberately inspired by American superheroes. It's a theoretical overlap, but one that no user I'm aware of would have difficulty with. So it's really a question of whether in this case we're looking for a user-driven set of categories, or an archive-driven one that makes clearer distinctions. Both are totally valid organizational schemas.
        Also, I should note that I'm not aware of any classification system that eliminates ambiguity. Both Library of Congress and Dewey cataloguing allow for significant variation based on individual decisions by librarians, and I wouldn't expect the AO3 not to either. To some extent, you're always going to have judgement calls that require decisions by your staff, and it's just a question of where you want those to happen most often -- we've already raised the question of whether imprints owned by DC and Marvel that are traditionally mostly or entirely separate from their main universes belong in those categories as things currently stand.
        
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    3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 08:41PM UTC
      
      Hi,
      We're registering the objections to the submedia names, and we will be discussing alternatives.
      Best,
      hele
      AO3 Category Change
      
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    4. 1. teaberryblue Thu 19 Sep 2013 08:42PM UTC
        
        Thanks! Much appreciated!
        
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majoline Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:23PM UTC

My question is: would we be able to look for everything labelled, for instance, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, since you're catagoizing it under two different sections of media? I've got a couple of fandoms where there are a couple of forms of media that comprises the canon and it would be nice to easily find both the tv and book sections, especially in the smaller fandoms.

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1. supergreak Thu 19 Sep 2013 03:54AM UTC
  
  Yes, you would be able to. The metafandom would still be there, and you can get to it from either landing page, if you click on one. For instance, the Chronicles of Narnia-All Media Types can be found in both movies and books, and you can use it to browse works for both together.
  For any browsing tag, you can delete the /works off the end to see the tag landing page. From there, you can see the metafandom, if there is one.
  
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2. 1. majoline Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:24AM UTC
    
    Ok, thanks for the clarification! I thought the metafandom was going away, the way the layout was organized.
    
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3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:49PM UTC
  
  Hi!
  Yes, the search field at the top would allow you to enter any fandom name, and all fandoms that fit it would show up, no matter the media categories, country or language they belong to.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change
  
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Anonymous (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:32PM UTC

Will the meta-fandoms show up in all categories of their sub-fandoms?

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:48PM UTC
  
  Hi!
  Yes, all fandoms will be findable by their categories — if a metafandom belongs to many media categories (such as an 'all media types' fandom), it will appear in all of them that apply. We prefer to have extra fandoms than have someone not encounter the fandom where they expect it to be.
  On the other hand, metafandoms will not 'inherit' popularity from their subfandoms, so unless the metafandom is popular (is tagged a lot) in its own right, it will not show up in the popular fandom shortlist.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change
  
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Account Deleted Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:36PM UTC

"Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art" is really long and cumbersome and, in my eyes, too broad. AO3 is the first place I've ever been where I've seen cartoons and comics lumped together like this. Why not make two separate top-level media categories -- Animation, and Comics? If the problem is that Anime & Manga have to be together (which I'm not arguing against), put that category in both.

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:47PM UTC
  
  Hi, ketsu!
  Subcategories can't belong to more than one category due to technical limitations.
  I've registered your feedback; we will use it in our ensuing discussion. Keep an eye on the tag wranglers mailing list, as we usually do an internal review before we go public.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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2. 1. Account Deleted Thu 19 Sep 2013 08:26PM UTC
    
    Oh, they can't? I was assuming these categories would work like tags do, now, hence the confusion. Thanks for the response, though!
    
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Arduinna Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:53PM UTC

To me, anthropomorphic and RPF are completely separate things that don't belong together. I think anthropomorphic should stay in "Other Media". It would never occur to me to look for "desk/chair" under "real people".
I also don't like "real life" as a potential category; it's way too broad and is wigging me out on some level. Also, I think it would open the door to more journaling-type things; why would people not feel free to post things about their jobs, kids, classes, pets, when there's a top-level category for real life? In fannish terms, "Real Life" has always meant the stuff that happens when you're not doing fandom.
I also think commercials should stay in "Other Media". Commercials can be animated, live-action, or both (e.g., all those commercials where an animated Mr. Clean visits an overworked live-action housewife to show her how to make things sparkle, or where animated M&Ms go to live-action parties). And I know that for Yuletide, at least, some people have nominated print advertisements (like catalogs). It's the nature of the advertisement that's the unifying feature in commercial-based fandom, not the particular medium through which the ad is presented.
The layout on the media page (... the second one, where it looks like you click "media" and get a page that's set up vaguely like the current "fandoms" page) isn't working for me. I get that it makes things look more organic, but the current setup means I can skim down a list to find what I want. The new setup means I have to read through a blob of text largely undifferentiated text (dark grey on light grey on offwhite) to find what I want. My instinct is always going to be to scan the left-hand side of anything to find what I'm looking for, and this layout forces me to not do that, and is disorienting. (The left-hand scan is pretty much universal, at least among English-reading folks (https://encrypted.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=eye%20tracking%20heat%20map&tbs=imgo:1/). It also runs "all" and "no submedia" into the same blob of subcategories, when they should be set off, IMO.
Having said that, it might be easier to read them if the headings were bigger (and preferably in color); right now it's a sea of muted gray boxes that all look the same to me. I agree with the person above who said the top-level categories should be links to the full category, and would add that if "no subcategories" was turned into "other", it would make more intuitive sense to me that the option there was to get the chunk of fandoms that don't fit into the listed subcategories. Otherwise "no subcategories" and "all" could technically mean the same thing.
I also have language/grammatical nitpicks, sorry:
Performing Arts
* Ballet & Dance
* Theater & Musicals
-- Ballet is a type of dance, and musicals are a type of theater. Why are they being treated as equal subcats with their own parent subcats?
"Real Person Fiction" should be "Real People", both to match the other categories and to make room for fanworks that aren't written fiction. (Scrabble and Monopoly are games; Supernatural and Stargate Atlantis are TV shows; Jensen Ackles and Jared Padelecki are real people, not real person fictions.) The standard shorthand may be RPF, but no one uses the full term the way you have it here - people don't make real person fiction vids, draw real person fiction art, or write real person fiction fic.
Also within Real People, "Political and Historical" should be "Politics and History" to match the other subcats -- everything else is a noun, not an adjective.

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1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:05PM UTC
  
  While I'd prefer commercials to be categorized under TV, I'm not heavily invested in that preference. I think of commercials as a live-action TV thing, so I want to click on the "TV" category and see commercial fandoms alongside the show fandoms. But I won't be disappointed if commercials stay "Other Media."
  
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2. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:46PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  Thanks for your feedback on the categories! I've noted it down for our discussion.
  At this time, we have decided not to avoid redundancy in names if we think it will make it more immediately obvious what the category or subcategory contains.
  As a note, the figures are mock-ups intended to guide the discussion; we’ll take your feedback into account when the final design is coded.
  Best,
  hele
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briar_pipe Wed 18 Sep 2013 08:54PM UTC

For Marvel and DCU, I think that question should be put to the wranglers of each of those fandoms individually, because I don't think we were actually asked? (The subcat couldn't be "Marvel" anyway, because "Marvel" is the metatag for everything, including cartoons and movies. The metatag right now for the comics is "Marvel (Comics)". So again, I'd suggest actually putting that question to the wranglers before making that call.)
Fairy Tales has 80-90 fandoms and has discussed asking for a subcat in Books & Lit. I'll check again with the wranglers to confirm that. (Our issue is that we don't have a way to separate out the traditional stories from the adaptations, because the fandom that was created for everything was "& Related Fandoms", and we have a whole bunch of "-AMT" tags subbed to that, so if you just want to find works based on traditional stories, right now you have to click story by story.)
I'll check in with the Religion & Lore conclave, but I believe the term "Religion & Lore" is preferred to "Myth" in any form. I'll get y'all a firm answer on that shortly.
We probably need a Cartoons category in Animation & Comics, as there are easily over a hundred fandoms that would otherwise just be floating there.
That's all I have at the moment. Thanks for your hard work on these, especially the megacategory names!

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1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:19PM UTC
  
  I would love to see a "Fairy Tales - Traditional" to separate out from the "& Related." I'm aware that would mean re-wrangling a lot of fics, and that those the authors had tagged as "& Related" couldn't be fixed unless the authors changed them. But I don't like having to search out each story separately, and otherwise have no way to filter out the growing amount of modern fairy-tale based movie & tv show fics.
  (I prefer Religion & Lore to Myth. And I'm sure it'd avoid some unnecessary drama when evangelicals discover Bible!slash.)
  
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2. 1. briar_pipe Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:24PM UTC
    
    We won't really have to re-wrangle. I mean, the users may want to re-tag, yes, and we should publicize that. But we did a huuuuuge re-wrangling this spring, so all the fairy tales that have been tagged for have their own fandoms separate from the "-AMT" tags, with appropriate language pipes. I have some amazing co-wranglers, seriously.
    And good idea about using the "- Traditional" disambig. That would make a lot of sense.
    
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3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:45PM UTC
  
  Hi, briar_pipe!
  Thanks for offering to go-between, but many of us are wranglers and can approach the different teams easily (and the teams can send in their feedback to our mailing list or approach us, too).
  We're open to having a Cartoons-type subcategory, but plain 'comics' or 'cartoons' were pointed out to be ambiguous in the internal feedback round. If you have suggestions regarding its name and contents, do let us know.
  In the meantime, I've noted down your feedback for our discussion.
  Best,
  hele
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4. 1. briar_pipe Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:54PM UTC
    
    Hi hele! Thanks for the reply!
    I'm going between because I'm a member of these teams - FT & Marvel, at least. Ane has already spoken for DC, but I think it'd be good to get an opinion from the Marvel leads. I'm also moderating the Religion & Folklore conclave, which is off-list, so it seemed appropriate to post the topic for that group to decide (which they're doing). I'm not doing this as staff, just as a member of the teams affected.
    Hasn't the internal wrangler feedback period already taken place? Though at the time Marvel and DC didn't know they were being considered for subcats, and the R&F conclave hadn't started yet, so no feedback was possible on those points. Was another wrangler round planned? Or do you prefer that we open a new thread for wrangler feedback on the internal mailing list directly related to this post?
    
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  2. 1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:13PM UTC
      
      Hi!
      Ah, I haven't kept up with the membership of the special teams. Even though the official round of internal feedback has passed, the proposal will be sent to tag wranglers after this stage, and we're always open to be emailed about it, both by internal and external stakeholders.
      If you want, I can meet with one or various of you in chat and bring back your feedback to the workgroup, or if it's something static you have already decided, you're always welcome to email it to us (our internal wiki page has several ways to contact us).
      The Marvel and DC subcategories were suggested at the time of that feedback round to fix the issue of ambiguous subcategory names.
      Best,
      hele
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    2. 1. ane Fri 20 Sep 2013 12:56AM UTC
        
        I totally don't remember DC and Marvel being suggested as subcategories. Was this on the wrangling list or in the cat change group?
        I don't see how 'Cartoons' and 'Comics' are somehow more ambiguous and unacceptable than 'TV shows' or 'Movies.
        
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      2. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Fri 20 Sep 2013 01:56AM UTC
        
        You likely had access to only a portion of the feedback the workgroup received, in all feedback rounds — including the internal one -- but maybe I'm mistaken. I haven't checked all the feedback compilations again.
        Cartoons and Comics wouldn't be ambiguous if we included all cartoons and comics in them (including manga), like we include all TV Shows or Movies in their categories, but then they would be less useful as a subdivision of the larger list.
        Best,
        hele
        AO3 Category Change Workgroup
        
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