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Mike opened the door to the bedroom of his daughter, Lily, as quietly and carefully as he could. He knew that the amount of muscle relaxers he had put in her chocolate milk the night before would have her in a deep sleep that a simple door opening couldn't wake, but he wanted to be careful. He slipped through the door, leaving it open for the light in the hallway. Luckily, it was just him and Lily home, as her mother was away on business.
He approached Lily's bed and let his eyes adjust to the dim lighting. Her small form laid sprawled out on the mattress, her blankets shoved down to the foot of the bed, only covering her lower legs. She wore a pink nightgown with thin straps and lace and bows all over. Her wavy blonde hair was pulled back from her face with a headband. She was positioned like she was doing a jumping jack, her arms out and bent up towards her head and her legs spread apart. The longer Mike looked at her, the more he saw as his eyes adjusted.
He sat at the edge of her bed and just watched her sleep. Her face was blank and peaceful. Mike imagined what she was dreaming about. Sometimes he wondered if she ever dreamt similar things about him that he dream about her, but that would be silly. She's only 8, she even still called him Daddy, she's not dreaming about her father molesting her growing body. But he sure as hell was, and it had become such an obsession that he believed the only way to quell it is to give into it, just a little bit.
Mike ran his hands down Lily's sides, from her ribs, to her waist, to her hips, to her thighs. Her nightgown was very thin and she felt all but naked to the touch. She hadn't reached puberty yet, so her body was still only that of a little girl's. There were no barely budding breasts or slight outward curves at the hips. She had the same shaped body that she'd had since preschool, it was just bigger now. But luckily for him, he loved her little girl body. She was just so cute and little and pure looking.
Mike’s hands ran back up her sides and moved to the front of her torso. He placed his hand on her chest to feel her heartbeat, and then to feel her small nipples through the fabric. That was it. He molested Lily. He molested his daughter. There was no going back from it now; he would always know, and maybe even she would too, depending on how the night went, depending on how deeply she slept.
Mike continued to gently play with her nipples, Lily giving zero sign that she was anywhere near awake. He took this as encouragement and became bolder with his touches. His attention turned to her hips and thighs and what lay between. Her nightgown was short but had ridden up, making it even shorter than mid-thigh. He pulled it up even further, exposing underwear that matched the pink and frills of her nightgown. Her legs were decently spread, far enough apart that he could see that her cunt was a particularly puffy one. He longed to see it, but there were other steps to do first.
Mike continued to pull up her nightgown, getting past her hips, and began ever so slowly pulling it up her torso. The first thing that it exposed was her flat pale stomach. He ran his fingers over her skin, surprised at just how soft it was. Raising it further, he was greeted to the sight of her bare chest. It was completely flat, like he expected, as she was so young. Her nipples were beautiful, puffy like her cunt. He took them between his fingers and rolled them, feeling them harden and swell. Lily still had no signs of being aware of any of this.
Mike moved his head down to take a nipple into his mouth and run his tongue all over it. He started gently sucking and took the other nipple between his fingers. He was playing with his 8 year old daughter's nonexistent tits and she didn't even know. His cock was hurting from how hard it was and it somehow kept getting harder. He grazed her nipple with his teeth and pinched the other one a bit harder. She made a soft noise in her sleep and turned her head on its side, now facing him.
Mike froze. She couldn't wake up to this, to her Daddy playing with her chest. He took her nipple out of my mouth let go of the other one and slowly sat up and stared at her, waiting for minutes. She was completely still and was making no other noises. He let out a breath he didn't know he was holding and thanked God for muscle relaxers. Now that he was sat up, he slowly lifted the nightgown over her head. It was very stretchy and he was grateful for this. Then, he said a prayer to whatever sick god would listen and moved her arms above her head so that he could pull it off completely. She didn't move a muscle on her own and he threw the nightgown to the floor, feeling invincible.
She looked beautiful in the faint light from the hallway. So pale and soft, not a mark on her skin anywhere. Mike set his sights on the only piece of fabric still covering his young daughter's body. He carefully moved Lily's legs so that her knees were bent and high up and her feet were together on the bed. Gently, so, so gently, he pulled her underwear down her hips, past her ass, up her thighs, and finally off completely.
Mike held her legs in each hand, savoring every second and every inch of Lily's body. Moving her feet apart slowly, he let her knees fall even further, leaving her legs spread for him. She was so small, her cunt still looking how it did when he was changing her diapers years ago. Plump and wet outer lips, with tucked away or downright nonexistent inner lips. He couldn't see her clit, but he knew it had to match the rest of her and be petite as the rest of her. He adjusted his position so that he was sitting between her skinny legs, imagining running his tongue over his daughter's tiny nub, sending pleasure throughout her prepubescent body.
Mike was surprised at her wetness. He didn't know if it was just the natural state of her cunt, or if her body was actually responding to the touches he was giving her. Groaning at the idea of the latter, of his little girl growing wetter as he sucked on her tiny nipples, he ran his finger down Lily's short slit, barely dipping it in between her lips. He continued doing this, grazing it up and down, pushing his finger deeper through her lips with each pass.
Eventually, Mike felt his fingers reach an untapped pool of wetness. The puffiness of Lily's outer lips had trapped most of it behind them, and he had finally uncovered it. This meant that her clit was just above his finger and her hole was just in front of it. He decided to start with her clit, running his finger to the top of her slit, but it proved more difficult than he imagined. He couldn't even find it, it was so small. He'd have to spread her lips completely and get a good look at everything she had down there.
Mike pulled his finger back and brought it to his mouth, sucking his little girl's juices off of it. He'd never tasted anything better, immediately becoming addicted to it. He placed a thumb on each lip and carefully spread them apart. Finally, he could see Lily's clit, and he could see why he couldn't find it by touch. It was incredibly small, but also far back behind the lips, hiding underneath a protective hood. He could only see the very tip of it, peeking out from under the hood. He removed his right thumb and instead spread her open with the index finger and thumb of his left hand, leaving the fingers on his right free to do whatever he wished.
Mike gently brushed his fingers against that small hood, careful not to touch her certainly incredibly sensitive clit, not just yet. He ran his fingertip left to right along it, hoping that the bit of stimulation was reaching Lily in her sleep. He moved on from her clit, just for now, to bring his fingers down to her hole. So tight and narrow that the opening wasn't even visible and he could've missed it. But he didn't, and his index finger carefully prodded at the entrance while his thumb resumed what he had been doing on her clit.
Mike’s finger didn’t even make it half an inch inside of her before he could feel how tight his daughter's cunt was, so tight that it was almost like it was trying to suck his finger in. He pulled the digit back to the entrance and pushed it inside her again, coating the tip with her wetness. Each time he withdrew his finger, he pushed it back in ever so slightly deeper. This was partially due to just how tight Lily was, and also to prevent her from waking up, to the best of his abilities.
After minutes of this, Lily's cunt had finally accepted Mike’s finger up to the second knuckle. He really was fingerfucking his 2nd grade daughter and she had no idea. He could feel her clenching around him, but it was her body's natural reaction. He wondered if the stimulation was seeping into her dreams. The idea appealed to him, and so he decided to amp up her molestation, the potential pleasure her subconscious was experiencing enticing him.
Mike leaned his head in, his tongue out, and skimmed that miniscule clit of hers, seeing that the hood had automatically slid back, exposing more of the nub. Lily's hips bucked into his mouth ever so slightly, convincing him that she really was dreaming of this, and she really was enjoying it. He continued stimulating her clit, licking it obsessively. Her hips continued to roll up and forwards towards his mouth, also pushing his finger deeper into her.
As the third knuckle of Mike's finger finally grazed the entrance to Lily's cunt, he put his lips around her clit and started to suck on her precious little pearl. Her thighs began to tremble on either side of his head and her cunt started to clench and unclench around his finger arrhythmically. He suctioned her clit with his lips with a touch more force and he felt her give in to him. Her entire small body was trembling at this point, her hips still bucking into his mouth as she came for the first time. More wetness began to flow from her hole, and he lapped up his little girl's cum like a man starved.
Eventually, Lily's body stilled, and all that remained of her orgasm was her heaving flat chest and the pool of wetness that had started to collect on her sheets. Mike's finger was still inside of her, her post-orgasm cunt gripping it deliciously tight. He noticed the ease in which he was thrusting his finger in and out of her hole, barely encountering any resistance. She had been stretched out to fit his index finger, but he needed to stretch her out even more.
Mike withdrew his finger nearly completely from inside her before adding his middle finger, his fingertips barely brushing against the entrance. He began to push them into Lily's tight kiddie cunt and found it even more difficult than a single finger. If he hadn't made her cum before this, there was no way even the first knuckle of his fingers would fit. But he did make her cum, so his fingers did enter her. It took much more time and care to get there than with one finger, and when they were both completely enveloped by her cunt, he quietly celebrated by pulling his achingly hard cock out of his underwear.
Mike stroked it as he pushed his fingers in and out of her, the rhythms matching up. The only thing out of rhythm was the squeezing of Lily's cunt, clenching around his fingers at complete random. It felt like she was already about to cum again, so he curled his fingers up and slowly stroked the sensitive roof of her cunt. Her body began trembling yet again as he added more speed and pressure to the stimulation.
Sure enough, Lily began to cum, seemingly even harder than before, this time releasing even more wetness from her cunt, coating Mike's hand. He let her finish her orgasm before pulling his fingers out, the suction of her hole making a popping sound. He stopped stroking his cock with his left hand and started to with his right, spreading her cum all over it. Groaning with his head tilted back, he stroked with more fervor, his hand and cock slick with his little girl's wetness.
Mike felt himself nearing orgasm and stopped himself, his hand still gripping the base. Staring down at Lily's soaking cunt, he felt the insatiable need to feel it pulse against his cock. Almost by instinct, he pushed the tip of his length up against her tiny hole and resumed stroking. Her cunt was still pulsing from her previous orgasms and it sent waves of pleasure down his cock. With the head of his cock pressing against her small opening, he felt his orgasm begin to overtake him. He needed to shoot his load inside of her, he needed it.
As Mike let go, he pressed against her harder. With each spurt of cum shooting into Lily's young cunt, the tip of his cock slipped slowly, ever so slowly, into her entrance. Without warning, her cunt suctioned up the head of his cock inside of her, letting his last streams of cum reach deeper than before. He was struggling to hold back his moans, his breathing ragged and shuddering. He hadn't even meant to stick his cock inside of her, he never could have imagined that any of him could fit. But thanks to the combined lubrication of her two orgasms and his cum, the head of his cock was now shoved firmly, tightly inside her cunt.
When Mike's mind finally cleared from his orgasm, he realized just how much Lily had started to stir. Her head had turned so that her cheek was on the pillow and her arms had lowered to cover her face. Her body was shifting slightly and soft moans were coming through her parted lips. He was as still as a statue, besides his softening, still pulsing cock, and continued his silent prayer for her not to wake up.
It wasn't answered this time. Mike watched with a mixture of horror and extreme arousal as Lily's eyelids began to slowly flutter open, her bleary gaze directed past him. With each passing second, more awareness entered her eyes until they finally focused on him. He hadn't moved from his most compromising position, the head of his cock still squeezed inside of her. Lily's brows turned up in the inner corners and her eyes scanned up and down as she took in the scene: her nightgown removed from her body and her father kneeling between her parted legs.
She still wasn't fully conscious, and her face was a wash of dreamy confusion. "Daddy?" Lily asked softly, her voice barely more than a whisper. "Daddy, what are you doing in my bed? Where's my nightie? What's going on?" Hearing his young daughter call him 'Daddy' while his cock was inside of her sent a strong pulse through Mike's length. This time, though, Lily could feel it. She gasped at the feeling as she finally noticed the grown man cock inside her most private of areas.
"Daddy, owie! What are you doing?!" She grew increasingly frantic the more Mike's cock pulsed, with her squirming panic causing it to begin to harden again. He stared down at his daughter, his little girl, his flesh and blood. His eyes were glued to his shaft sticking out of her cunt, the head of his cock enveloped inside her. He tried to steady his breathing, but Lily's writhing sent jolts of stimulation through him. Hardening still and wracking his mind for an excuse as to why he was there, he put his hands on his daughter's hips, attempting to still her.
"Shh, baby, it's okay; Daddy has to do this to make sure you're growing up alright. I need to make sure your private parts are growing right with your little body," Mike said, attempting to calm the young girl. He moved his hands up to her chest. "Daddy also has to see if your little chest is developing yet. Do you know what developing means, baby?" Lily shook her head, her expression still one of pain and confusion. "It means getting bigger, so I'm touching your chest to see if it's growing yet."
Mike ran his hands over Lily's chest before focusing on her puffy little nipples. He held one between two fingers, gently squeezing and rolling it. Lily's eyebrows raised and her mouth went wide, letting out a gasp. Her face still looked scared and confused, but there was obvious pleasure in her expression. As he took the other nipple between his fingers, Lily's breathing became heavy and gasps became frequent. Even though she was only eight and hadn't growm tits yet, her nipples were sensitive and begging for stimulation.
"Daddy, please stop," she moaned softly, her voice a mixture of pleasure and fear. "You're not supposed to touch me here, you're not supposed to do stuff like this." Lily's protests were broken up by her moans and quiet cries. Mike removed his hands from her chest to gently skim his fingers over her stomach. "Alright, baby, I won't touch you there," he said, slowly moving his hand down to her clit. "Maybe this touching will better."
The enveloped head of Mike's cock continued to occasionally pulse, causing Lily to cry out at random. His hand came to rest at Lily's cunt. "Okay, Daddy's gonna start playing with your private parts, baby," he said, spreading her open a bit more to fully get to her clit. He started rubbing small circles over it, continuing to explain to her what he was doing. "What I'm touching right now is called your button. It's there just to make you feel good. Does it feel good, baby? Do you like Daddy touching your little button?"
Lily shook her head while moaning. "Daddy, please, please stop touching me. It feels good but I don't want it, please, Daddy, stop, please." Mike ignored her request and continued to play with her clit. "C'mon, hon, Daddy knows how good it feels, just let yourself feel all of it." He started rubbing harder and faster, making Lily cry out. He started to feel wetness building up inside her cunt, coating his cock.
"Oh, baby, you're getting wet for Daddy, that means you like it and it feels good." Mike looked down at his cock. "Daddy needs to put his grown-up parts all the way inside his baby's cunnie, your private parts." Lily felt his cock slowly, ever so slowly, sink into her cunt. It takes a minute for each inch to go inside her. After four minutes and four inches, Lily's tiny cunt couldn't take it any deeper.
Lily was delirious, her little baby hole stretched to its limit. "Daddy, it hurts, please Daddy, you're hurting me," she said to him as he began to thrust slowly in and out of those sweet four inches. Nearly half of Mike's cock was left out of the fun, but he still savored that tight, wet, perfect cunt. "It's gonna be okay, baby, just wait, Daddy needs this more than you know." He pushed further at the wall at the back of her hole, desperate to have his cock further inside.
As Mike began to pick up speed, Lily started to cry. A real cry, a sob, not just being teary eyed. She cried loudly and obviously and he didn't ease up on her. If anything, he went faster and harder. He loved the sound of her cries, and knowing that he caused them. "Why are you crying so hard, baby? Daddy's just trying to help you." He slammed his cock into her hard, making her scream. "You sound so pretty when you scream," he said, "and when you cry, when I make you cry."
Mike began to rub her little clit harder and faster, causing his little girl to let out moans in between her sobs. "Daddy, please stop touching me there, I don't like it, please," Lily begged, nearly hyperventilating. He thrusted his cock as far as she could take it and left it there, the head pressed against her back wall. He focused on playing with her clit and making his daughter feel pleasure through the pain. The only thing better than making her sob is if he could make her cum at the same time.
"Let Daddy make your little cunnie feel good, baby. You've got my Daddy parts filling you all the way up and my fingers playing with your little button, just try and relax and enjoy it, baby, I know you can." Lily's cunt was squeezing Mike's cock like a vise, like it needed it inside of it, despite her extreme protests. Her eyes were red, wide, and streaming tears down her flushed cheeks. He pressed his cock against the wall at the back of her cunt and those eyes rolled back into her head, a moan reluctantly escaping her mouth.
"I knew you'd enjoy it, hon," Mike said, never stopping the assault on her clit. "Good little girls like you are meant to have their Daddy's grown-up parts inside their cunnies like this. Good Daddy's are meant to rub their little baby's buttons just like this." Lily brought her arms up in front of her face to hide the expressions of unwanted pleasure, but that didn't stop the gasps and moans that slipped through her lips. He began fucking her again, pulling his cock out until only the head was still inside and slamming it back into her. He swore that with each thrust he was gaining a new millimeter inside her.
Lily's cunt started to clench down on Mike's cock with more force and less time between each squeeze. Her moans and cries picked up, getting louder and more frantic. He knew what was happening to her, even if she didn't: his 8 year old daughter was about to cum on his cock. "Daddy, something's happening, my private parts feel like they're gonna explode, you need to stop, please," she begged as her father slammed his cock against the resistance in her cunt, getting a little bit deeper each time.
"Oh, baby, don't worry. Nothing bad is gonna happen, it's just that your little cunnie is about to cum. That means you're gonna feel extra, extra good soon." Mike used the hand that wasn't forcefully rubbing circles on her clit to grab at her chest, taking one of her oh so sensitive nipples and rolling it between his fingers. "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, DaddyDaddyDaddy..." Lily babbled, her voice filled with pain and pleasure that she didn't understand. He continued his thrusting, realizing that he had unlocked a whole new inch of his daughter's cunt. He also noticed that the wetness that had been coating his cock was now tinged red with blood. He was fucking Lily so hard and deep that it was actually causing damage. His eyes rolled back at the sight.
Lily's little body began to tense up and shake. Her cunt that had already been squeezing randomly, desperately, was now fully clenched down on her father's cock with no letting up. Her red, teary eyes got even wider than they already were and her mouth was as open as it could go. She locked eyes that were full of confusion with him and let out a single scream of "Daddy" before her orgasm slammed into her prepubescent body. Her moans were screams mixed with cries. Her small body convulsed around on her bed. Her back arched, pushing her cunt even further down on her father's cock.
Mike was staring at her with awe and a level of lust he had never even come close to experiencing before. His daughter, his baby daughter, clenching down on his cock, cumming on his cock, bleeding on his cock. He watched her body writhe as her first orgasm of her life pulsed through her. It wasn't gentle pleasure; her orgasm was as violent as the fucking her father was giving her. It even hurt him, her cunt squeezing so hard that it felt like it could bruise his cock. He pushed himself into her forcefully, finally gaining another inch inside of her, leaving only one more to go. Lily's cum coated her father's cock, the red more noticeable than before.
After Lily's orgasm passed through her, Mike pulled most of his cock out of her, giving her time to still and her screams time to settle to quiet sobs. Her hands covered her face, preventing him from looking her in the eye like he wanted. He reached up to her face and gently pulled her hands away. Her face was covered in tears with drool leaking down her chin. She met his gaze with a look of fear that he loved. She then looked down between her legs at her father's cock pulled most of the way out of her and noticed the blood for the first time. Any level of calm she had been able to reach was quickly destroyed as she frantically tried to pull herself off of him. He held her still by the hips, saying, "If the sight of it scares you that much, I'll go ahead and put it back where it belongs." His cock pushed back into Lily's ravaged cunt, causing her sobs to start back up.
"Why, Daddy, why?! Why are you hurting me, why are you doing this to me?! It hurts so bad, please let me go, please," she begged and pleaded, which only resulted in her father resuming fucking his cock in and out of her. "Oh, baby," Mike cooed, caressing her face with his hand, "Daddy just loves how you sob and scream and bleed for him. You've done so well so far." His thrusts gained speed and he brought his hands to her tiny waist, encircling it completely. He pulled her body towards and away from him, fucking Lily on his cock like a sex doll.
"You came so pretty for me, but now it's Daddy's turn. Don't worry, baby, Daddy will make sure to overfill your little cunnie with his cum." Mike finally opened up the last inch of Lily's cunt as he thrust himself inside her completely, feeling the swollen, welcoming entrance that was her cervix. Savoring the feeling of being completely enveloped by his daughter's poor ruined cunt, he began to match the speed of thrusts that he had made her cum with. Her screams started again, her voice hoarse and shrieking. Using the grip on her hips, he fucked into her violently, only caring about his own pleasure now that his daughter had came.
Mike stared down at the look of pure anguish on Lily's face and grinned. "Tell Daddy that you love him, baby, look me in the eye and tell me," he said, staring at Lily's eyes that were fixed solidly on the ceiling, tears streaming out of the corners. "Tell me you love me and it'll all be over, I promise." She shuddered beneath him, terrified and reluctant. She didn't want to say it, she hated everything he was doing to her and she didn't want to do anything that made him think she liked any of it. Continuing to just sob, Lily squeezed her eyes tightly shut.
Mike chuckled at his daughter's attempts to ignore him and slammed his cock against her cervix as hard as he could, forcing another scream out of the girl. "If you don't say it, there'll be more and more of that. So just say it, baby, look at me and tell me you love me." Lily reluctantly opened her eyes and stared up at him, their eyes locking. She choked back her sobs and attempted to catch her breath before she relented and gave him what he wanted.
"I love you, Daddy," she said quietly, barely speaking. Mike slammed into her again, not quite as hard this time, and grinned down at her. "Again, and louder, baby, Daddy can hardly hear you." She did as he said, repeating "I love you, Daddy" at a volume closer to her speaking voice. her father stopped the punches to her cervix and started fucking her like he had been before. "Again, baby, and again and again. Keep saying it, let Daddy know how much you love him." The next time she said it was loud but weak, exactly how he wanted her.
Mike fucked into her with force, Lily's chant of "I love you, Daddy" swimming around his head. "I love you, Daddy, I love you, Daddy, I love you, Daddy..." Her words were mixed with her sobs and gasps, making them sound painful. "I love you, Daddy, I love you, Daddy, I love you, Daddy..." He could feel his cock throb and pulse, signaling that his orgasm was coming soon. "I love you, Daddy, I love you, Daddy, I love you, Daddy..." He sped up his thrusts, adding more pain to Lily's voice, her hoarse, weak, despairing voice. "I love you, Daddy, I love you, Daddy, I love you, Daddy..."
Finally, Mike felt himself tip over the edge. He groaned loudly, his head thrown back in ecstasy, as he began to cum deep into his daughter's pained cunt, right against her abused cervix. He held himself there, pressing against her cervix as if he could push through it. Stream after stream hit the back of her cunt, filling her with her father's hot cum, the same cum that he had shot into her mother eight years previously that had made her. He didn't stop cumming until it had started to seep out of her cunt around his cock, dripping down into a pool beneath her. The idea of using the cum as lube to fuck her ass flitted through his mind and he shot one final spurt of cum into her cervix.
Lily was softly crying underneath him, her young face full of suffering and shock. Mike kept himself where he was, his cock exhausted of cum but continuing to throb inside of her, each pulse sending small waves of pain through her abused cunt. Minutes passed like this until the young girl's tears finally ran out and she couldn't cry anymore, her mind beginning to shut down. her father slowly pulled his cock out of her hole, its suctioning making it a small fight to remove himself. He exited her with a popping sound, the feeling of the head of his cock leaving the tight cunt sending a final shot of pleasure through him, making him moan. Lily didn't react, instead staring blankly past him at the ceiling.
Mike sat up on his knees and looked down at his daughter, taking in all the damage he had done to her. Lily's face was devoid of emotion, her eyes heavily lidded and glassy, her lips slightly apart, her tears drying on her skin. His eyes ran down her body until they reached between her legs; her cunt was red with blood smeared over her swollen outer lips. The blood continued out onto her inner thighs and down, mixing with his cum and soaking into her bedsheet. He then noticed the blood covering his own cock and lightly chuckled in sick satisfaction. He grabbed Lily's nightgown off the floor and used it to clean her blood off of him, leaving it streaked with red.
Mike stood from the bed, having to steady himself with a hand against the wall. He stared at his physically and mentally broken daughter, smiling down at her fondly. Bending over, he gently pushed his hands underneath her and lifted her up, cradling her small body in his arms. Lily made no sign showing that she was aware of his actions, continuing to stare at the ceiling. He kissed her on the forehead and walked out of the door and towards his own bedroom.
Mike carefully lowered Lily onto his bed, adjusting the pillow underneath her head. He pulled his blanket up over her small naked body and walked to the other side of the bed and laid down beside her. Putting his arm around her, he pulled Lily closer to him. Unconsciously, the girl wrapped her arm and leg over his body, clinging to him. She began to shake against him, her breathing picking up. He held her close, his arms around her, and kissed her forehead, softly shushing her.
"It's okay, baby, Daddy's here, Daddy's got you." Mike continued to soothe her until her shaking and breathing began to calm and she was still again. "Daddy," she whispered, and closed her eyes. her father smiled down at her and kissed her on the top of the head. "Lily," he muttered in response, closing his own eyes. The two drifted off to sleep, both exhausted and empty in very different ways.