If I have to be honest, I'm not a fan of moderation. On another site, negative concrit comments to a fic magically disappeared, and they were absolutely polite. Clearly, the author used a tool created for something serious to boost her own 'image'. I guess that here we'll go the same way. Pity. (btw: how pathetic must you be to spend so much time and energy to harass people like that? bah)
Yeah, there is that factor, but then again, the kind of person who would do that with someone being polite and talking about the work won't take the advice anyway. *shrug*
And seriously, there's someone going around on anon leaving goddamn ESSAYS of ad hominem crap. I have a screenshot of mine because it's so hilarious.
Regardless of how polite it is, concrit is considered rude if an author didn't ask for it. I've seen that sentiment everywhere in ao3 in my fandoms. It isn't a matter of "image;" some people have trouble with handling random criticisms from strangers on the internet. If someone genuinely wanted concrit, they'd say so, or take it up with a beta. Anyway, I think even if someone thought their concrit was polite, it could be misinterpreted completely the wrong way. The internet is full of misunderstandings from tone in text.
Agreed. And it took me a while to really understand the lesson. :) But while many of us encourage concrit and would love one to pieces, there are authors, good authors, who can become discouraged and even blocked by any piece of criticism, even if it is cushioned by lots of praise. They aren't people building an image, they are people who are their own worst critics and simply can't stand any added negativity on top of that. And they have a right to have that choice respected. (However, they are also people whom moderation probably won't help, because they will still read the comment, even if anybody else doesn't.) So, let's be kind to each other and unless someone has a stated preference for concrit/no crit, ask before saying something negative?
If you (not 'you' you, eh!) don't want to risk receiving concrit, you shouldn't publish (or put on huge disclaimers "I don't want your opinion if you don't like it"… but that probably would generate reaction like "then why are you posting?" so… lol, yeah). To me is implicit that a person, when they put something on a public archive, is fully aware of the possible consequences.
I knew this answer was going to come... And I don't agree with that. By that logic, you shouldn't be allowed to walk out of a house without expecting criticism on the way you look or something. This isn't a site for people to necessarily improve, and comments aren't just for concrit. People share their works because they wrote something they love, and they want others to see, like posting art to twitter/tumblr. Writing for many people is a hobby, and part of the fun of being in a fandom is sharing content, especially for fandoms/ships that are rare. I feel like unwarranted criticism intensifies it and makes it less enjoyable. For the intense aspiring writer, maybe that's fine, but this isn't a job. Fanfic writers aren't professionals, they don't have editors and resources of support to help them. Maybe you don't agree, and you'll move on, but I guarantee that you're going to run into more people who will probably get upset (not necessarily angry, but upset) if you infer that posting something is just asking for criticism and you criticize them.
And personally, if I wrote a lot, I think I'd be fine with criticism...if it came from people I trusted. I wouldn't trust a stranger's concrit. I've seen some people give concrit, and they're bad at it. I've found a lot of terrible advice in comment threads/reviews (more on ffn than ao3, but still). Makes me want to concrit their concrit.
Thank you for saying this. I couldn't agree more. I recently came here from Fanfiction.net. I am one that doesn't handle random criticism well, especially from anon people and non writers. I agree 100% that fanfic writing is supposed to be fun. The readers are not paying for what they read, so there is no room for constant nitpicking.
If you're so concerned about helping people improve their writing, then perhaps you should consider what actually helps them. We share our work for others to enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, fine, that doesn't mean we asked for your opinion and believe it or not, we're quite capable of functioning without it. Perhaps you should be less concerned about spelling errors, and more concerned about the fact no longer being able to harass people with your unsolicited criticism is upsetting you.
Again? You post on a public archive, you should expect reaction (positive or negative). If you can't bear it, create a closed community with the caveat "we accept only praise", of put a huge disclaimer on every story. The spelling example was -wait for it!- an example! (really!) And to close this (because always repeating myself is quite tedious), I am not upset about the new tool, just a bit worried of the way it'll be used by people that, apparently like you, don't care/want/stomach other people's opinion.
True concrit is not intended to be mean--it's intended to help the author improve, whether it's SPAG or characterization or plot. the only concrit I don't agree with is the sudden obsession in a lot of fandoms against omniscient POV (aka so-called "headhopping").
Otherwise, if a polite person comments without flaming or slandering and suggests that your canon characters are acting out of character or you have SPAG errors, suck it up and work to improve your writing.
It's an author's right not to have to hear negativity and to delete comments no matter how 'politely' that negativity is phrased. Some of us are just on here to play. We don't want negative comments or con-crit. We simply want those who enjoy the story have fun with us. There is this grand assumption that authors want to hear people's opinions no matter what they are. Not so. Readers should know that and I make a point to educate readers regarding this.
Not to mention, the critiques on here are rarely polite or helpful. More often they're outrageous and mean. They're usually invaluable to the author (I'm speaking about both myself and other author's whose comments I've read). Readers need to get to know an author before they start critiquing anyway. It's important to build rapport.
So yes, we do need moderation, otherwise we give everyone free reign to do as they please to good authors and that's not okay.
Nope, you're not educating a single person. As they've already told you, you're expressing your personal opinion. That's all. Btw: you think that authors don't want to know other people opinions… why do you have the impression that the rest of the word cares about yours? (or that you are in any position that entitles you to 'educate' others?)
Why anyone posting a fic should only expects or accepts praise? how immature is that? Seriously (and I'm talking about sane commenters here, not trolls or stalkers) If i'm not mistaken, there's still freedom of speech. And if someone decides to post things, they have to expect that they might not like all the reactions. If they can't stomach this, they should create a closed community or something.
Btw, this "you think that authors don't want to know other people opinions… why do you have the impression that the rest of the word cares about yours? (or that you are in any position that entitles you to 'educate' others?)" was ironic.
"Invaluable" means "of a value impossible to easily calculate," so you're actually saying that concrit is the best thing to give an author. That's what I think, and I don't think you meant to agree with me there.
So ALL the authors are good (not a single one in need of improvement, fantastic). And nobody has the right to say "please recheck your story because there are plot holes/typos/whatever, here and here". And the fact that they published in a public archive means nothing (of course). A reader can basically stumble across any horribly written story and said reader just has the right to close the page and shut the fuck up. And if they have the gall to say 'but…' SBAM. Deleted. "We don't care about anything else, we just want compliments (even it they are lies, obviously)" That's it? Good to know.
(Quite pathetic and immature, IMO, but whatever makes you happy)
If the author didn't ask for criticism, then you are giving it without consent. What if the author is writing in a language that isn't their own? What if the author is 13 years old, and therefore might be sensitive to unsolicited criticism? I read a lot of stories on here that aren't perfect, but I still enjoy them, and I'm thankful that the people who write them went to the effort to share. The point of constructive criticism is to improve the outcome (in this case the story), but if it comes unwanted, then it isn't an improvement- it is hurt feelings and abuse, and normally considered very rude. The nice thing to do would be to offer to beta for them.
The comment moderation is optional. The comment moderation is to help prevent abuse. If your criticism isn't welcome, or is taken as threatening, then it will be taken care of, either by the author deleting the comment, or by the Abuse team. Having comment moderation doesn't change that; it just lessens the number of steps to get to it done. Also, it doesn't stop the author from seeing your criticism- it just prevents everyone else from seeing it. That prevents embarrassment on the author's part. Why is that bad?
Comment moderation won't stop criticism. What it will stop is public doxxing, dog-piling, and bullying. Comment moderation is a needed blessing.
Yes Lilij, that's precisely what I'm saying. No one has the "right" to give an opinion that's not asked for. Authors have the right, not to hear what people don't like about their stories.
Often times, just posting on a public forum is scary enough without having people tear apart your hard work.
Lots can be garnered by positive interactions, I'm sorry you don't feel that way, but I've experienced it myself. If every author had to hear every opinion from every reader, many would stop writing. I'm not foolish enough to believe everyone's going to like my stuff (for example) but hearing about those who dislike it is of no use to me.
As far as plot holes/spelling/typos:
Plot holes: it's far more effective and a better learning experience for the author to work with a beta. Random people commenting, can't possibly see the artists vision. I've found random readers usually assume the worst and are usually wrong about the stories direction. The plot hole they think they've found is resolved by the end of the story and if it's not? Who cares, it's fanfic. Let them go on their merry little way. If their story isn't good, they won't get many compliments and they'll know.
Spelling/typos: even in published books, there are typos. We write these works for free, perfect editing is not required, otherwise we'd be getting paid. People expect way too much if they are expecting a FF work free of typos.
If there are a lot, ppl usually stop reading. I know I do. The author likely knows they are a terrible speller. If not, that will quickly become apparent if they try to get published.
If the author has not asked for help, they simply aren't ready for it yet and that should be respected.
More over, you've proved my point. Can you see how this conversation is going nowhere? Our comments to each other weren't valuable to the other. You and I will never see eye to eye. It's exhausting and a waste of both our time.
I only responded for the benefit of the mods, I knew I was likely to get such a response from you; could tell by your writing style.
Last, when "opinioners" share their unauthorized "opinion," they are seldom willing to have the writer's opinion in return. Supposedly, a reader may give any opinion they like, but when an author does the same with that reader, boy do we hear it. We are apparently "okaying" such behaviour by virtue of posting on a public forum. Nope. Sorry. I don't ask ppl to read my stuff or to comment. It's okay for author to police their page and to say what goes on it or not. I will continue to educate readers in this regard. I am an advocate for positive interactions on these sites only and as this has just proven, even less positivity comes out of such chats.
I have in no way called you names Lilij, but you decided to use the terms "pathetic" and "immature," with is hurtful. You don't even know me. I merely posted my thoughts on the topic and once again, got the same kinds of response I always get in these situations. But at least you can see how it feels when someone comments on something you've written and disagrees and how fruitless these kinds of discussions really are.
Better for both the author and the reader to discuss something they both like in this kind of forum. It's more fun and profitable for both. :-)
(.) I wholeheartedly agree with you. Better to offer to beta for the person, than to assume they want your feedback.
And better not to embarrass the author. There's is no need to publicly shame them for their pitfalls. It's already scary to post your works. Some are just getting started, just getting their bearings.
So they only want some encouragement at first? There's nothing wrong with that. We must always remember these works are free and we don't have to read them.
See, I think it's not concrit if you're not also being encouraging. "This part is good, but it could be better with [insert whatever.]" Wanting to see a story improve is not the same as wanting to see its author cry.
But I'm in favor of moderation because of the way comments can landslide. You're not even there to see your controversial fic get trolled again, and oh look, there's a holy war in the comments, just the kind of thing you want to scroll through today! :D
It's late, I'm tired (in general, and of this discussion in particular).
The "that above" was simply a 'we won't ever agree, this discussion is over'. I'm perfectly capable of discussing this without 'jabs' or whatever, but I tend to answer in kind. My 'rudeness' is due to the way YOU talk. You see yourself a knight in shining armour, but you are every bit as 'rude' as me, if not worse. Your haughtiness is not conductive of dialogue, sorry.
This last comment of yours is a perfect example. You've pretty much decided on your own what is legit or not to do, basically you lay down the law and the rest of us must comply. And if someone disagree? omg, they need to be punished asap!
I hurt your feelings when I say 'immature'? And now 'lilyj' has become an insult (don't try to deny it, a simple substitution makes it pretty clear). Colour me surprised.
I'm not sorry for thinking that having the right to express oneself is right, even if it burst your bubble of omnipotency.
PS: for being such a tender soul, your first line to me was "No Moderation? That's crazy." Are you implying that I'm crazy? 'cause you'd hurt my feelings, you know?
Just pointing out and using this discussion to prove why we need moderation. "Lilyj" was not an insult, but the way you speak and behave is indicative of many like you with the same attitude, so yes, I used you as an example and generalized because I feel I've encountered enough "yous" in my time to do so.
And what you say is exactly my point. Apparently me and writers like me are on 'high horses' due to our wish to be asked permission before con-crit takes place, but readers like you are not for simply giving unasked for advice? Isn't that a "high horse" of its own. You continuously contradict yourself.
To clarify: No moderation IS crazy. I did not say you were crazy. That is your own assumption. I was never trying to say you're crazy as a person.
Also to clarify, I am not hurt by you in the least. The things you say are hurtful type things. I was just pointing them out, because I get the feeling you don't realize this. I was just letting you know and politely (OH! Unasked for CON-CRIT! Don't like it much, huh?) See? See what I did? I've been doing it this whole time and you still haven't caught on. I've been politely giving you con-crit and you have NOT liked it nor have you had a positive response. See? It doesn't matter how kindly it's phrased, the writer will interpret it how they will. The example of: No Moderation? That's crazy is a good one. The way you interpreted my statement, hurt your feelings even though it was not something intended to hurt you. THAT'S EXACTLY HOW AN AUTHOR FEELS when they get con-crit no matter how nice. They aren't necessarily going to get the reader's meaning. Especially not a stranger. There MUST BE dialogue. Private dialogue.
I hope you can relate now and learn from this experience.
I have decided nothing on my own. My opinion is shared by many writers. We as a collective have decided not to stand for abuse (at least some of us). Because it's all abuse if it is unasked for critique. The reader has no way of knowing where the author's at and I know for fact that it does damage even if it's polite.
I'm very confused as to why you're so against simply asking permission of the author before giving critiques. It's just courteous. It's polite. Often the author is responsive to that. It's better for all involved with healthy dialogue.
It does not infringe on any "right" of yours, but considers YOURS and the AUTHOR'S as well. Because we do have the RIGHT not to hear your opinion.
ETA: Ah, just looked at your profile. You are Italian and so am I. This could go on for years. I very much understand how Italians work since I was raised in an Italian home. Please don't be upset. I am just a very logical person. The way I talk is just the way I talk. I'm not trying to be insulting, you're just taking it that way. Just have an nice day and don't worry about this convo anymore. You've said your piece, I've said mine. Though, uh, I think it's safe to say we should no longer interact. I'll stay away from you, you stay away from me? Ciao.
Likely the same way you came up with that I was Baka. ;-) You said I sound like her...
I know quite a few Calabirans. You remind me of them. My niece is half-Calabrese, so I'm familiar with their way of speaking. I also have a Calabrian aunt and cousin. A few of my friends are Calabrese.
We are from the South too, but not Calabria. My father was born in Isernia, Italy, but they lived in Compobasso. I get the impression it's more firey in the South. The Northern Italians I know are far more calm I find. (Unless you tell me you're from the North, then I will know they have just as much fire ;-)
Many of us (My family) do not live in Italy anymore, but man, you should see family dinners with the Italians...people think we're pazzo. Haha! My Nona died just last year, it was very sad for me to lose that part of my heritage. She never learned to speak English, and sadly I never learned very much Italian, but I always somehow understood what she was saying. I miss her.
Anyway, here's to hoping we can bury this hatchet.
I don't think anyone EXPECTS typo-free work, but a lot of authors (me included) find typos embarrassing and also trivial to fix and would very much like it if readers pointed them out instead of walking on eggshells because some authors take "by the way, you accidentally left a word out of this sentence" as a mortal affront and public shaming (it's not. it's just letting you know there's a typo).
Ideally, AO3 would have a PM system so I could ask people privately if they want to know about typos. And ideally, people would let me know when I have a damn typo instead of being too "polite" to mention it (and I should note that I DO think the useful place for more substantive criticism is in the beta process)
so would you be okay if a stranger on the street telling you, that you look fat in your outfit because you got dressed in fashion and went outside in public? hey it's con-cript....and I'm sure they are trying to help you dress better...
I agree with you. Authors have a right to play and find like minded people to enjoy their work, without harassment. The comment moderation is protect authors, not damage readers. Who cares if the comments aren't public?
I don't think there's much point to this feature, but authors can already delete comments (which I think is a good feature, even just for spam control), so negative comments can already "magically disappear."
I'm not sure this will really make a huge difference, other than making it less likely for other readers to start a slapfight in the comments before the author gets to it and shuts it down.
Comment on Comment moderation is coming
lilyj Tue 27 Oct 2015 10:35PM UTC
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